is Kiln Dried pine safe

by Pet.crazy101 Sat 31 Oct 2020, 1:44 pm

i can't seem to find a solid answer to whether or not kiln dried pine bedding safe for mice, every time i try and look it up i get mixed answers
any help at all would be greatly apricated

by MousieMomma Mon 02 Nov 2020, 4:00 pm

Honestly, I always try to avoid pine, even if it's kiln-dried or if the package says "Safe for pets". Pine is very acidic, and causes chemical burns if constantly exposed. I know from experience that pine is not safe, as I used to use it for Guinea Pig bedding, and it caused a couple of my piggies to get bumblefoot.
If you want wood-based bedding for your mice, I would go with kiln dried aspen.

by chiroptera Wed 04 Nov 2020, 11:06 pm

I personally avoid pine at all (though to be fair I'm not a fan of wood beddings in general), but I will say that I believe my mouse breeder uses kiln dried pine without issue?

by Molly_mouse Mon 09 Nov 2020, 10:38 pm

It's pretty controversial. I would steer clear. There's no reason you absolutely need pine, and if there's even a chance it could harm your mice, I would just stay away. Stick to unscented paper bedding and aspen. My mice like kaytee clean and cozy, and will burrow in practically nothing else. Though it is expensive, so if you need to save money I like to use a piece of cardboard to split bedding in the cage, one side with cheap aspen that they don't burrow in, and their wheels and other things that they don't like to have burrows around anways, and one side with most of their hides and the soft bedding. I hope this helped!

by Mir’s Many Mice Mon 09 Nov 2020, 10:56 pm

The reason pine and cedar wood is harmful is because the trees naturally produce a chemical called phenol. This chemical is a natural pesticide and can cause things like liver failure in small animals (if they come into contact with too much.)

Pine and Cedar Bedding Is so dangerous because the shredding of the wood easily releases the phenol (and when urine comes in contact with the wood it releases more phenol.)

When Pine wood is kiln dried it releases most of the phenols in the wood making it reasonably safe for small pets. (Cedar wood contains far more phenol than pine, so even when kiln dried it’s still dangerous.)

I believe kiln dried pine toys to be safe but not bedding. This is because, as I said before. Shavings wood into small pieces makes the release of phenol easier and urine can make the chemicals come out of the wood (and beddings secondary purpose is to absorb urine.)

And if this were to be in a cage without good ventilation it becomes even more likely to be dangerous.

by Clementine Tue 10 Nov 2020, 7:11 am

I don't believe kiln dried pine to be AS toxic as other beddings such as cedar and non kiln dried pine, so in theory it would be fine, but I'd steer clear if I were you. If for some reason you had no other options, then MAYBE you could use it, but I'd consider it as a last resort. My friend used kiln dried pine once, and she agrees- probably not outright dangerous, but not really the best, either. At least in her opinion. I know several people have had bad experiences with this bedding, so I'm not gonna speak for them.

by River Mon 16 Nov 2020, 2:03 am

Kiln-drying removes the phenols that made pine dangerous to begin with, so I see no reason it wouldn't be safe. I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe the shavings are actually dangerous anymore, though there are other options so I've never felt the need to use it. I don't think I'd stress about it if I had to, though, so if that's the case, I'm sure your mice will be fine until you run out!

I can say that I would likely not recommend paper-based beddings over wood, as some others do. The ammonia suppression with pine has been shown to be much better, and therefore safer than it was in paper-based bedding. The paper bedding was removed from the study early when ammonia levels became dangerous. I have steered clear from it since I learned that, and tend to suggest aspen shavings these days with some shredded toilet paper for nesting. That wasn't always the case, though, and I used paper bedding for years with minimal issues.

I have seen no scientific association between pine bedding and chemical burns -- that may be the fault of the brand, something else in the environment, or maybe I've just missed a new article lol. Feel free to let me know!

by Robin~ Mon 23 Nov 2020, 6:16 am

I just wanted to clarify kiln-drying does not remove the phenols. The ovens used in this process only get up to about 200F versus the ~800 needed for phenol evaporation. So, essentially, kiln-drying does nothing to get rid of the phenols: it’s just as bad as regular pine.

However, pine toys (kiln-dried or not) are perfectly fine to use. As Mir’s Many Mice said, the surface area for phenols to be released upon is vastly reduced, making toys and even DIY cages made of wood perfectly safe to use.

Personally I don’t even use aspen (a safe wood bedding) because of how dusty wood beddings tend to be, but it sort of depends on the ventilation of your cage and how well that dust would be able to be whisked away.

by River Mon 23 Nov 2020, 12:43 pm

Thank you for the correction! Admittedly the only updated study I had on it's safety was this one from 2007 about liver enzymes and whatnot but nothing about potential respiratory/skin related problems yet. If I find one, I'll update for consideration. Until then I stand corrected and if you're not sure...avoid it!

by River Fri 04 Dec 2020, 9:04 pm

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I figure there's no need to make a new one...

Anyone know about pine pellets? Substrate for digging/burrowing would of course still be provided but I saw in one of Erin's Animals videos that she used this for her male mouse and apparently the odor control was pretty great. He doesn't smell too bad but I'm interested in trying it. Confused

by chiroptera Fri 04 Dec 2020, 11:41 pm

I'd have to think Erin wouldn't use something unsafe, but can't really say for sure.

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