Suggestions: Square inches per mouse
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Suggestions: Square inches per mouse
by Sparkles Tue 19 Jan 2021, 4:48 pm
The cage calculator on this site is the first result to show up on Google. Why is the amount of space so small? It doesn't seem to match any other standards I've seen around other mouse groups. 
Sparkles- New Member
- Join date : 2017-12-01
Posts : 9
Re: Suggestions: Square inches per mouse
by River Tue 19 Jan 2021, 7:10 pm
I'm pretty sure it's the same calculator that was transferred over from the old forum (TFM). I can't say when exactly it was made, but the recommended cage size in the US only started to change a few years ago. It just never got updated, no two forums seem to agree 100% and I imagine we're just waiting for more concrete answers. I see it as sort of a bare minimum, like for hospital cages, quarantine, retirement homes, so on. I don't believe anyone left here still follows it and if you ask you won't receive the same answers the calculator gives. Maybe an Admin has a more positive answer, though? This is just how I understand it.
In the wild, they only tend to travel 5-25 feet away from the nest so the necessary size is going to be a little smaller than it is with hamsters (who can travel miles in one night) but I do agree they still need a larger area to keep their active minds busy. I recently upgraded to a 55 gallon for my single male. I tried to give him something as close to his natural territory size as I could and I think this should be the ideal goal for everyone.
In the wild, they only tend to travel 5-25 feet away from the nest so the necessary size is going to be a little smaller than it is with hamsters (who can travel miles in one night) but I do agree they still need a larger area to keep their active minds busy. I recently upgraded to a 55 gallon for my single male. I tried to give him something as close to his natural territory size as I could and I think this should be the ideal goal for everyone.
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Goose & Otter* ♂
Remembering Mr. Bald ♂, Tipsy, Topsy, Maier, Graham & Garcia ♀
*Neutered male group. Do not house intact males together.*
Remembering Mr. Bald ♂, Tipsy, Topsy, Maier, Graham & Garcia ♀
*Neutered male group. Do not house intact males together.*
River- Hero Member
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Re: Suggestions: Square inches per mouse
by Peachy Tue 19 Jan 2021, 7:57 pm
River’s correct. The calculator was saved from a former breeder’s website that shut down. After we had this discussion a few years ago I made a “Considerations” note but for some reason it vanished. I put it back.
I could change the minimum square inches, but what number would that be? No one’s number is the same.
Everyone seems to follow their own rules (which we encourage you to do, not all mice have the same needs) so finding a consistent number has been impossible. We call whatever the calculator spits out an absolute minimum and encourage larger for permanent housing, larger mice, more active mice, males that need the extra enrichment space, keepers that have the extra space, etc.
I could change the minimum square inches, but what number would that be? No one’s number is the same.
Everyone seems to follow their own rules (which we encourage you to do, not all mice have the same needs) so finding a consistent number has been impossible. We call whatever the calculator spits out an absolute minimum and encourage larger for permanent housing, larger mice, more active mice, males that need the extra enrichment space, keepers that have the extra space, etc.
Peachy- Moderator
- Join date : 2016-04-06
Posts : 3165
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Re: Suggestions: Square inches per mouse
by Sparkles Wed 20 Jan 2021, 8:04 pm
Why not simply say that the rule is 250 square inches for one mouse and 100 for each additional mouse? If the calculator is inaccurate, I think you should remove it. Or change the number to 150 per mouse but only for females.
Sparkles- New Member
- Join date : 2017-12-01
Posts : 9
Re: Suggestions: Square inches per mouse
by River Wed 20 Jan 2021, 11:00 pm
Absolutely fair.
I'm not sure that choosing a new minimum yet is the answer, though. That minimum isn't much more widely agreed upon than the last one. The English-speaking mouse community is really still sorting things out, so throwing out more random numbers that'll probably be different in a year or two doesn't seem productive. I'm not sure I'd be satisfied with it, anyway. I think the correct approach when scientific evidence seems limited is to encourage individualism. They are the most studied small pet in the world. We know what the signs of stress and poor welfare are, so we could put that to use and adjust accordingly. We have made a move towards doing this lately.
But then, I also think that could give too much room for error, especially with beginners...
What I would suggest is a linked thread about the mouse's wild environment and territory-size, as well as minimums from other countries so we can be truly well-informed even in the absence of a set minimum. There are also a few studies (though not many) on the effects of cage size and enrichment on total well-being that could be included. My hope with this is that the community will finally settle on a number that makes sense.
I think this can also inspire people to imitate their natural territory/environment once they realize just how doable that really is. An arbitrary minimum won't help us get there, but it's not an unrealistic goal.
I'm not sure that choosing a new minimum yet is the answer, though. That minimum isn't much more widely agreed upon than the last one. The English-speaking mouse community is really still sorting things out, so throwing out more random numbers that'll probably be different in a year or two doesn't seem productive. I'm not sure I'd be satisfied with it, anyway. I think the correct approach when scientific evidence seems limited is to encourage individualism. They are the most studied small pet in the world. We know what the signs of stress and poor welfare are, so we could put that to use and adjust accordingly. We have made a move towards doing this lately.
But then, I also think that could give too much room for error, especially with beginners...
What I would suggest is a linked thread about the mouse's wild environment and territory-size, as well as minimums from other countries so we can be truly well-informed even in the absence of a set minimum. There are also a few studies (though not many) on the effects of cage size and enrichment on total well-being that could be included. My hope with this is that the community will finally settle on a number that makes sense.
I think this can also inspire people to imitate their natural territory/environment once they realize just how doable that really is. An arbitrary minimum won't help us get there, but it's not an unrealistic goal.
_________________
Goose & Otter* ♂
Remembering Mr. Bald ♂, Tipsy, Topsy, Maier, Graham & Garcia ♀
*Neutered male group. Do not house intact males together.*
Remembering Mr. Bald ♂, Tipsy, Topsy, Maier, Graham & Garcia ♀
*Neutered male group. Do not house intact males together.*
River- Hero Member
- Join date : 2016-06-19
Posts : 1486
Peachy and Dee67 like this post
Re: Suggestions: Square inches per mouse
by Peachy Sat 23 Jan 2021, 12:24 am
My colonies these days are a max of 3-4 and my bin cage is big enough for “9.” Admittedly, I don’t keep up with current standards and it all seems like a random number. 
If anyone wanted to make a thread that considers current information about mouse housing (or send what you’ve got and I’ll put it together), I’d be happy to add it to the cage calculator and housing threads or sticky it!
If anyone wanted to make a thread that considers current information about mouse housing (or send what you’ve got and I’ll put it together), I’d be happy to add it to the cage calculator and housing threads or sticky it!
Peachy- Moderator
- Join date : 2016-04-06
Posts : 3165
River and Dee67 like this post
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