'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
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'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by Mahjling Sun 13 May 2018, 2:38 pm
If that embed code breaks, which it often does here, you can view it at the source by clicking Here
{That being said, disclaimer, mice really aren't the right pets for everyone, they can be skittish, etc, grain of salt}
There are certain other places on the internet that will try to convince you that Mice hate having Enrichment, and Space, or that an essentially empty bin with some bedding material and maybe the occasional cardboard tube is fine to keep mice in because breeding is plenty of enrichment. Anyone who tells you that is trying to sell you a puppy mill in miniature, and it really bugs me.
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by CallaLily Sun 13 May 2018, 3:39 pm
Wow. Are there really groups out there that claim you shouldn't provide enrichment?? 
That’s crazy. 
That’s crazy.
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by Mahjling Sun 13 May 2018, 4:22 pm
Oooh yeah.
Breeders especially will tell you that mice don't like space, and that bedding, nesting material, and breeding are all the enrichment a mouse needs. It's a massive issue in the fancy, and one that doesn't get called out much, because breeders tend to avoid pet owners and their forums, and pass the same bad information in circles, and because non breeders, pet breeders, and the general public don't ever really get a chance to interact with them {The forum I'm thinking of here especially is good at driving non active show breeders away} no one ever tells them they're wrong, or there's no outcry because no one notices it.
https://2img.net/h/oi68.tinypic.com/2gy3ofs.jpg for example, which I unabashedly stole from That Forum, is a common setup for show breeders. Note that I have nothing against bin cages, I'll probably make some of my own once I've moved and have space for more mice. What should be noticed however is that they're empty. There's nothing going on there. And this wasn't a temporary setup, this is how these animals live.
Here's a shot from a thread where someone is asking how many mice they can keep in a 50g, note that my setup is 75g, and that I would never keep more than five, Maybe six in mine if I was really going to push it for emergency reasons of some sort.
Here's a thread discussing cage sizes.
{A 20g tank is 24 x 12}
Here are some other setups I pulled at random from the 'Share your Setups' thread, in link form to avoid stretching the page.
Not ventilated enough
Hard to see through, but not enough enrichment
A handful of hay and a hide isn't good enough
Not enough enrichment
Not 'The Worst' but that side tub is too small even for one mouse
Not enough enrichment
This comment was made in reply to this setup:
That first tank is nicely decorated, but too small even for one mouse. The rest are fine, though I'd like to see more things to climb up, that's just me being picky.
Don't get me wrong, There are good setups where I pulled these from as well, but this is more or less the norm in the world of breeding from what I've seen.
Breeders especially will tell you that mice don't like space, and that bedding, nesting material, and breeding are all the enrichment a mouse needs. It's a massive issue in the fancy, and one that doesn't get called out much, because breeders tend to avoid pet owners and their forums, and pass the same bad information in circles, and because non breeders, pet breeders, and the general public don't ever really get a chance to interact with them {The forum I'm thinking of here especially is good at driving non active show breeders away} no one ever tells them they're wrong, or there's no outcry because no one notices it.
https://2img.net/h/oi68.tinypic.com/2gy3ofs.jpg for example, which I unabashedly stole from That Forum, is a common setup for show breeders. Note that I have nothing against bin cages, I'll probably make some of my own once I've moved and have space for more mice. What should be noticed however is that they're empty. There's nothing going on there. And this wasn't a temporary setup, this is how these animals live.
Here's a shot from a thread where someone is asking how many mice they can keep in a 50g, note that my setup is 75g, and that I would never keep more than five, Maybe six in mine if I was really going to push it for emergency reasons of some sort.
Here's a thread discussing cage sizes.
{A 20g tank is 24 x 12}
Here are some other setups I pulled at random from the 'Share your Setups' thread, in link form to avoid stretching the page.
Not ventilated enough
Hard to see through, but not enough enrichment
A handful of hay and a hide isn't good enough
Not enough enrichment
Not 'The Worst' but that side tub is too small even for one mouse
Not enough enrichment
This comment was made in reply to this setup:
That first tank is nicely decorated, but too small even for one mouse. The rest are fine, though I'd like to see more things to climb up, that's just me being picky.
Don't get me wrong, There are good setups where I pulled these from as well, but this is more or less the norm in the world of breeding from what I've seen.
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by CallaLily Sun 13 May 2018, 5:41 pm
What a boring life for those mouseys. 
Your “share your setups” links wouldn’t work for me but I can imagine from your descriptions.
Your “share your setups” links wouldn’t work for me but I can imagine from your descriptions.
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by Mahjling Sun 13 May 2018, 6:16 pm
I may go through and fix them eventually, they're pretty boring though, mostly bins with some hay and Maybe (but not always) a hide.
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by chiroptera Sun 13 May 2018, 6:29 pm
Mahjling wrote:
{That being said, disclaimer, mice really aren't the right pets for everyone, they can be skittish, etc, grain of salt}
There are certain other places on the internet that will try to convince you that Mice hate having Enrichment, and Space, or that an essentially empty bin with some bedding material and maybe the occasional cardboard tube is fine to keep mice in because breeding is plenty of enrichment. Anyone who tells you that is trying to sell you a puppy mill in miniature, and it really bugs me.
Video was hilarious, and what cute, cute girls you have! (Also really wanna try ecoearth(?) for Pumpkin, I think he'd enjoy it!)
But honestly ugh, I hate when people say that "x animal doesn't like a big cage" or "doesn't need enrichment". saw that a LOT when i kept bettas and it's infuriating. i can't think of a single situation where and animal would do worse in a larger space (except maybe injury/disability/elderliness). they may not want a lot of OPEN space, but if you give them the tools to hide and do their natural behaviors/enrich themselves and they always have access to food/water/necessities, of course they'll thrive in a bigger space?
and those pictures make me so sad, all of the bare-bones cages. especially when mice hides cost next to nothing. toilet paper rolls, some paper, maybe a popsicle stick? bam your mice can frolic and hide and have fun
also that rabbit enclosure made me wince and i don't even own rabbits ;;
CallaLily wrote:What a boring life for those mouseys.
Your “share your setups” links wouldn’t work for me but I can imagine from your descriptions.
if you delete the ~original from the links, they do work!
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by CucumberMouse Sun 13 May 2018, 6:35 pm
I love your video so much. Personally this has always been a topic that has confused me. I think that as an owner, even *if* your mouse were to become less social towards you because of enrichment, it is your job to give them the enrichment anyways. If you choose to get an animal, you should put their needs above your own. If you are ready to condemn an animal into a boring mind-numbing life, just so you can save space or money, or have them be more social towards you, then you shouldn't be getting the animal. Sometimes I wonder where the common sense has gone in animal care because some of the set-ups you've shown above seem absolutely insane. I can't see how someone could put a mouse in a completely empty bin and think "Oh yep. I'm sure my mouse is going to be happy in there. They can eat drink sleep... and absolutely nothing else. Sounds like a great life to live!" Maybe some owners just don't care, which is truly sad. When researching about a detolf cage for my mouse, one of the first bits of information I was given was that the detolf would be too big and make my mouse go "wild" and possibly become aggressive. From what I've seen this has been absolutely false. Sometimes I feel like my little guy needs more space than a detolf. But I've also heard on this forum where some people's mice do become aggressive and/or less social in larger spaces. Maybe they're not handling the process of putting their mice into a bigger cage correctly, or maybe their specific mice really do just not like a bigger cage? I'm not sure, but I really think that it's best to provide the biggest space you can. Regardless of if providing more space is always good or not, it's just wrong to think mice don't need enrichment. They have brains. They need stimulation. That's the simple truth of it.
Kind of a random way to end this comment, but I just have to say that your girls look so cute and sweet in the video Mahjling
Kind of a random way to end this comment, but I just have to say that your girls look so cute and sweet in the video Mahjling
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by CallaLily Sun 13 May 2018, 7:14 pm
CucumberMouse wrote:When researching about a detolf cage for my mouse, one of the first bits of information I was given was that the detolf would be too big and make my mouse go "wild" and possibly become aggressive.
I think this comes from people hearing that immediately putting untamed mice in a very large space straight away may cause difficulties in taming.  Or they read that mice don’t like big open spaces — key word open. They then take one or both of these statements to mean large spaces = bad. Totally not true.
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by Mahjling Sun 13 May 2018, 9:25 pm
I definitely recommend eco earth, so much cheaper too, now if you want a good way to cut costs that will benefit your mice, there's something to talk about, it takes about 8$ a month to keep my 75gal full, 8$! That's less than one bag of care fresh! And that's for my monster of a cage! If you use it, buy expandable terrarium moss as well, it helps bulk it up and makes everything smell like a nice forest, mmm~
Also thank you for figuring out how to fix the links, I was going to troubleshoot later but just don't have the energy in this heat!
I've had rabbits before, and I don't even wanna think about it, rabbits need so much room and time and work...
And yeah, I fully believe putting an animal in a huge empty cage would make it nervous, but that's where the enrichment comes in, if your cage is properly set up, they shouldn't feel scared, nervous, or the need to be aggressive. Sometimes new enrichment might be weird or make them nervous at first, but once they get a chance to check it out, it should be...Well...Enriching!
Honestly it isn't even that spendy to get a big cage, my 75g was 40$ off craigslist. And pet shops often do '1$ a gallon' sales, so a nice 40g would only be 40$, or a 20g for 20$.
And to be selfish for a moment...
It's fun!
Seeing your mice in big spaces with cool objects is just fun, it's fun to watch them play and work and live their little mouse lives. Sometimes when I feel bad, I put animal crossing music on & watch my girls go about their day. So soothing!
Also thank you for figuring out how to fix the links, I was going to troubleshoot later but just don't have the energy in this heat!
I've had rabbits before, and I don't even wanna think about it, rabbits need so much room and time and work...
And yeah, I fully believe putting an animal in a huge empty cage would make it nervous, but that's where the enrichment comes in, if your cage is properly set up, they shouldn't feel scared, nervous, or the need to be aggressive. Sometimes new enrichment might be weird or make them nervous at first, but once they get a chance to check it out, it should be...Well...Enriching!
Honestly it isn't even that spendy to get a big cage, my 75g was 40$ off craigslist. And pet shops often do '1$ a gallon' sales, so a nice 40g would only be 40$, or a 20g for 20$.
And to be selfish for a moment...
It's fun!
Seeing your mice in big spaces with cool objects is just fun, it's fun to watch them play and work and live their little mouse lives. Sometimes when I feel bad, I put animal crossing music on & watch my girls go about their day. So soothing!
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by chiroptera Sun 13 May 2018, 11:15 pm
@Mahjling
Only $8?? that's a turn-on right there lol, we may be moving soon into somewhere with more space, and if we do I'm thinking about moving Pumpkin into an aquarium that I found for free a while back. I'm not sure exactly the gallonage but my best guess >50g, it's pretty big. I don't think the ecoearth will work well with their current bin setups, unfortunately. But if I can find a decent job/maintain a bit more financial security, I want to get a crested gecko, so if I do it'll definitely be worth a shot to try that out.
And no problem about the links haha, I'm always too curious to see what people are linking to, so my curiosity doesn't let me leave it alone most of the time
but yeahhh as much as the setup for the mice was inferior, I'm real worried about that rabbit... they need so much more space and care than that ;-;
for real though, why even have animals if you just want to slap them in a box and drop food in once a week? it doesn't make sense to me. i want to see them scurry and climb and chew and, y'know BE MICE, that's why i have mice???
Only $8?? that's a turn-on right there lol, we may be moving soon into somewhere with more space, and if we do I'm thinking about moving Pumpkin into an aquarium that I found for free a while back. I'm not sure exactly the gallonage but my best guess >50g, it's pretty big. I don't think the ecoearth will work well with their current bin setups, unfortunately. But if I can find a decent job/maintain a bit more financial security, I want to get a crested gecko, so if I do it'll definitely be worth a shot to try that out.
And no problem about the links haha, I'm always too curious to see what people are linking to, so my curiosity doesn't let me leave it alone most of the time
but yeahhh as much as the setup for the mice was inferior, I'm real worried about that rabbit... they need so much more space and care than that ;-;
for real though, why even have animals if you just want to slap them in a box and drop food in once a week? it doesn't make sense to me. i want to see them scurry and climb and chew and, y'know BE MICE, that's why i have mice???
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by Mahjling Mon 14 May 2018, 1:26 am
Yup! You can even get 11lb dry {so it weighs 11lbs BEFORE water is added} blocks on Amazon for like, 20-21$. Coconut fiber is So cheap it's ridiculous! If you order eco-earth online from petsmart, then go pick it up, they'll take 5% off the price, so it's like 4$ for three bricks. Sometimes I just cough up a bunch of money at once and hoard every package they have in the store 
Coconut coir is also Super easy to store, it comes dehydrated in bricks, which are easy to stack and tuck just about wherever you have room. I keep mine on a shoe rack...Above the shoes.
50g is great! You'll probably need less than six bricks to fill it, so your costs will likely be even less than mine!
We also have a crested gecko in the house! He uses a chunkier coconut coir than my mice though. Also a ball python, who uses the same chunky coconut coir, and two leopard geckos.
Basically! They have so many animals, I dread to think about their care. Mostly I just push it from my mind, or it'll just make me sad.
Exactly! There's not even real money to be made in breeding animals, especially mice, so the only reason someone should be doing it is because they're passionate about and love them, and if you're passionate about your animals, why wouldn't you do the best you can for them?
My budget is honestly tiny, but I'm happy to dump whatever extra I have into my mice. Luckily my girlfriend is in the same boat as me, she loves our mice so much she's happy to add some of her excess funds into the mouse bucket. She's especially fond of making them tiny mouse salads, which the ladies are happy with, they're like tiny machines built entirely to Consume All Cilantro
Coconut coir is also Super easy to store, it comes dehydrated in bricks, which are easy to stack and tuck just about wherever you have room. I keep mine on a shoe rack...Above the shoes.
50g is great! You'll probably need less than six bricks to fill it, so your costs will likely be even less than mine!
We also have a crested gecko in the house! He uses a chunkier coconut coir than my mice though. Also a ball python, who uses the same chunky coconut coir, and two leopard geckos.
Basically! They have so many animals, I dread to think about their care. Mostly I just push it from my mind, or it'll just make me sad.
Exactly! There's not even real money to be made in breeding animals, especially mice, so the only reason someone should be doing it is because they're passionate about and love them, and if you're passionate about your animals, why wouldn't you do the best you can for them?
My budget is honestly tiny, but I'm happy to dump whatever extra I have into my mice. Luckily my girlfriend is in the same boat as me, she loves our mice so much she's happy to add some of her excess funds into the mouse bucket. She's especially fond of making them tiny mouse salads, which the ladies are happy with, they're like tiny machines built entirely to Consume All Cilantro
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by chiroptera Tue 15 May 2018, 6:20 pm
You keep tempting me haha, next bedding run may be for some ecoearth then. (Still not sure about using it in the current bin setup but I might get a small pack for a test-run at least~)
I'm incredibly bad at judging sizes so I could be way off lol, I wish there was room for it in the apartment but it absolutely won't. (Three people, 2 dogs, 5 mice, 4 rats, and 2 birds in a loft apartment doesn't leave a lot of room to spare
)
Yeah Better to think about other things, like how cute all your girls are! I love the soda themed names, too. All I drink is Cherry Coke so I kinda want one named Cherry now.
MOUSE SALADS omg... Â I gotta make a mouse salad now! And the girls can eat every cilantro they want, because I don't want cilantro anywhere near me at any time >->
I'm incredibly bad at judging sizes so I could be way off lol, I wish there was room for it in the apartment but it absolutely won't. (Three people, 2 dogs, 5 mice, 4 rats, and 2 birds in a loft apartment doesn't leave a lot of room to spare
)Yeah
Better to think about other things, like how cute all your girls are! I love the soda themed names, too. All I drink is Cherry Coke so I kinda want one named Cherry now. MOUSE SALADS omg... Â I gotta make a mouse salad now! And the girls can eat every cilantro they want, because I don't want cilantro anywhere near me at any time >->
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by Mahjling Tue 15 May 2018, 8:33 pm
May as well give it a shot! Even if some gets on the floor, it vacuums right up, easier than carefresh or wood chips even, so even mess isn't a huge deal.
Someday! When I move into a bigger apartment, I'd like to look for another 75g, or get some bins. I have a personal breeding project or two I'd like to get back into, but I don't have the space for it right now.
Aww thank you! I've seen Pumpkin around, and they're a cutie! I call my tank 'the vending machine' because everyone is named after a soda =,D
Mouse salads!!
My girlfriend thinks cilantro tastes like soap so she's in the same boat. My girls prefer vegetables to fruit {besides apples} so it's easy to get them to eat their vegetables. And when the weather gets hot like it is now, it's a good way to help keep them hydrated.
Someday! When I move into a bigger apartment, I'd like to look for another 75g, or get some bins. I have a personal breeding project or two I'd like to get back into, but I don't have the space for it right now.
Aww thank you! I've seen Pumpkin around, and they're a cutie! I call my tank 'the vending machine' because everyone is named after a soda =,D
Mouse salads!!
My girlfriend thinks cilantro tastes like soap so she's in the same boat. My girls prefer vegetables to fruit {besides apples} so it's easy to get them to eat their vegetables. And when the weather gets hot like it is now, it's a good way to help keep them hydrated.
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by chiroptera Wed 16 May 2018, 10:31 am
Yeah, I'm definitely going to try it! 
Pumpkin just buried a cardboard box I gave him in bedding for some reason ( 
) so I think he'll have a lot of fun May even give it a try with the girls too if it goes well.
Yeah, the small apartment struggle is real. :'P If space and money weren't a problem, I would have sooo many more animals.
And thank you!! He's my chunky punky, and he's actually my first ever male mouse.
I 100% think that cilantro tastes the way stinkbugs smell. I can't get the association out of my head, so... no cilantro for me. No thanks. But if the girls like it, I may have to get mine some to try.
Pumpkin just buried a cardboard box I gave him in bedding for some reason ( ) so I think he'll have a lot of fun May even give it a try with the girls too if it goes well. Yeah, the small apartment struggle is real. :'P If space and money weren't a problem, I would have sooo many more animals.
And thank you!! He's my chunky punky, and he's actually my first ever male mouse.
I 100% think that cilantro tastes the way stinkbugs smell. I can't get the association out of my head, so... no cilantro for me. No thanks. But if the girls like it, I may have to get mine some to try.
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Re: 'Mice Hate Enrichment' an educational video
by lovelife82 Tue 05 Jun 2018, 1:10 pm
Hi, I’m new to mice. Got my first little baby last Thursday. He’s so adorable. Was wondering, do you guys recommend a tank as a cage? I bought a cheap second hand cage which is a good one but I had to mesh it as the bars were 7mm and Herrington is only 6 weeks old. Would be cool to see him getting up to what he gets up to but the mesh makes that difficult.
Thanks
Amanda
but the mesh makes that difficult.Thanks
Amanda
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