Do any of you ever worry...

by CallaLily Thu 24 Nov 2016, 8:53 am

...that feeding mice mainly foods for completely different species is leaving them lacking in anything?

Sorry to post yet another controversial topic today.

It's another thing that has been nagging me. It's why I've changed up my mouse diet so many times in a little over 2 years. I started with a mouse mix. But it was too low on protein and variety. Yes, you read that right. Too low on crude protein. I ended up switching to a parakeet food to avoid picking things out but then I stressed about them missing something. Cue the hunt for a decent U.S. mouse block. When I couldn't find that, I settled for mixing Brown's Tropical Carnival rat/mouse with their hamster/gerbil. But there I was again wondering about the questionable ingredients. Raisins, pineapple, almonds, artificial dyes and flavorings - and many would argue sunflower seeds and peanuts too. Then I finally found a mouse block I could live with and switched them to their current diet. Which balances out at 14% crude protein, 4% fat (which is a little too low), and 11% fiber (which is a little too high). I haven't calculated them in (I really need to) but I'm hoping some of the fattier treats I give them balances that some (walnuts, pumpkin seeds, mealworms). It's still a bit of a work in progress.

Seriously though, how can a food formulated for a bird or a hamster give a mouse adequate nutrition alone? Something to think about. And trust me, I know it sucks thinking about because most mouse foods are so full of questionable things and too high protein. Though some bird and hamster foods also contain some questionable ingredients (raisins, pineapple, mint, bay leaves, peppers, etc). Not that I'm planning to change foods again, but I think my next mission is to see if - instead of looking for that one perfect bag of mouse food - to see if it's possible to come up with a mix of a few different commercial mouse foods (and maybe other add ins) to create one acceptable one. Thinking

by CanadianExport Thu 24 Nov 2016, 10:16 am

I at actually does concern me a lot. I went a very controversial step of making my own mouse mix when Ori started scratching all the time and I needed to do a complete elimination diet. I was always super frustrated with the colors and the lack of variety and the super crappy ingredients in all small animal food across the board. For me my big concern now is finding a food that has a low enough protein yet goof enough ingredients because Ori cannot have too much protein. I don't know yet whether I will switch back to a commercial food or try to continue to perfect the home made diet that she finally seems to be doing well on.

I really appreciate hearing someone else has he same concerns.

by CallaLily Thu 24 Nov 2016, 10:41 am

Yes, I have also went that route with a homemade grain/seed mix but I round it out with Science Selective Mouse. Which is harder to get but for me worth it.

How low does his protein need to be? If you find a mouse block or mix you're happy enough with, you could lower the protein if necessary by mixing in a lower crude protein food at the right amounts.

by CanadianExport Thu 24 Nov 2016, 10:51 am

I am still figuring out the exact proportions right now but from the fact that it is the high protein bugs that send her into itchy fits I am guessing it is probably around the low end of 12%. She can eat her seed mix with the grains just fine. Like I said though I am still calculating this out as I only recently finished the elimination allergy testing.

by Artistwolf Thu 24 Nov 2016, 12:00 pm

Honestly, I don't think it's a problem.
Because hardly any real mixed formulated for other small animals are actually appropriate for them.
Take Brown's, for example. A hamster won't do well on that low crude protein! Clearly, it's not properly formulated for hamsters, either. So even if something was labeled as mouse food, there's no guarantee it'll actually be nicely formulated for a mouse. Besides, mice in the wolf probably do eat mostly what other small animals would eat. I can almost guarantee you that if you went out to, say... Russia where the Russian dwarf hamsters live and you found an area where a mouse's range and a Russian hamster's range overlapped, they would basically be eating the same foods. I don't know if they're so different that something formulated for hamsters (with too low crude protein for hamsters) would be a problem for mice.
Pardon

That's just my two cents.

by CallaLily Thu 24 Nov 2016, 12:16 pm

I was thinking more along the lines of appropriate amounts of vitamins and minerals. But you do have a point that pretty much no individual commercial mouse (or hamster) food is appropriate alone. And hamsters may have close enough needs, but parakeets? I'm not sure. When I have time I'm hoping I can find a few commercial mixes that would work together. At least they were formulated with the intention of being what a mouse needs. I know just comparing vitamins in a rat food to a mouse food the other day, they were very different. But are they the right ratios? That I don't have the answer to.

Thank you for your input! I really enjoy hearing other's thoughts on these topics!

by CanadianExport Thu 24 Nov 2016, 12:19 pm

I really appreciate that you were willing to ask the question! If you do not mind, maybe once you have found a mixture that works for you, you could share?

by CallaLily Thu 24 Nov 2016, 12:25 pm

I will. Thanks!

by Artistwolf Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:11 pm

CallaLily wrote:I know just comparing vitamins in a rat food to a mouse food the other day, they were very different.

Ah, that makes sense! Mm, good thought. I think it's strange that mice are SO well studied and yet there's no good commercial mouse food out there. Doesn't make any sense. Although I guess that would be lab blocks, which I find kind of a sad excuse for food :/ Although idk. Maybe in a mix, that would be okay.

by stephlisa Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:43 am

I worry the same thing actually - its why I started giving Colin the Science Select as well as a mixed food. I'm actually thinking of putting him together a healthy seed mix once we're nearly out of his current food so that I know he'll actually eat it. He leaves so much of it - always the same bits too and it seems such a waste when I know I can get bags of appropriate seeds and mix them all together in appropriate quantities to supplement his Science Select food so he doesn't get bored.

by stephlisa Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:46 am

I also do give Colin the occasional sunflower seed. We grow sunflowers in the garden and dry them and process them so it seems sad not to share them with him. Its only like maybe one or two a week, but he does love them! He hasn't had a bad reaction yet, obviously we keep an eye on him for changes in his behaviour...but yet to see any!

by Peachy Fri 25 Nov 2016, 7:01 am

I wonder if there's really anything "official" about nutritional requirements for mice (regarding the vitamins and such). I came across sooo many studies that talked about diet when I was researching brindles and their crazy colors, and diet needs often varied based simply on strains or environment. I don't see anything wrong with feeding food intended for different animals as long as your mice are doing well on it.

Yoshi only gets really itchy with sunflower seeds if he's free to eat as many as he wants (ie, all that are in his bowl). One every once in a while doesn't bother him, and he gets so excited about them!

by CanadianExport Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:26 am

I wonder if part of the different food requirements stem from the fact that lab mice are often bred for very specific genetic requirements depending on what the scientists are studying so their dietary needs will change. I know when I was researching substrate I came across websites and products that are pretty much ONLY available to research labs and I wonder if food is the same. This could mean that the particular diets that are formulated for the different lines of mice are only available to research labs. This could be why pet store diets are so bad, because mice as pets are still looked down upon as disposable starter pets (I IN NO WAY BELIEVE THAT) and this results in terrible food for them. It has really only been 10 years that dog and cat owners have had really good food options and I think the pet food industry really lags behind in general. We may not have a good mouse food here in North America until people start changing their minds about mice as pets and demanding better foods.

by Brynne Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:28 pm

The issue does not bother me. I'm a person and I have VERY LITTLE IDEA WHATSOEVER what my own nutritional needs are. There are "experts" in every field who will swear I need x amount of certain nutrients while others are just as passionate that those amounts are too much, too little, or the wrong nutrients entirely.
I listen to opinions from a wide range of resources, and do the best I can with what I know at the moment.

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